The Coloroso controversy, continued
There’s more reaction to the Toronto District School Board’s decision to pull Barbara Coloroso’s Extraordinary Evil from a Grade 11 course (see Quillblog past). The Board was bowing to pressure from the local Turkish community over references to the Armenian genocide in Coloroso’s book, a characterization Turkey has always vehemently denied.
Now The Writers’ Union of Canada chair Susan Swan has posted a statement about the case on its website. It reads, in part:
It is completely unacceptable for those responsible for educating the citizens of tomorrow to remove valuable titles every time an interest group brings forth a complaint. If so, your library shelves would be bare indeed.
Swan adds that she’ll also be lobbying TDSB executive Gerry Connelly directly. At the time of this post, still no official statement from Coloroso’s publisher, Penguin Canada.
“Turkey’s Chronic Inability to Face the Truth”
http://www.globalpolitician.com/24630-armenia-turkey
Clearly Swann never majored in logic in college.
The Toronto District School Board has made itself look just plain silly by bowing to Turkish censors.
The school board should go to www.Armenian-Genocide.org, which is a scholarly collection of material about the Armenian Genocide. Click on “International Affirmations,” for example.
And take a look at the eye-opening letter that the International Association of Genocide Scholars sent to Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan concerning his absurd proposal for a new “study” of the Armenian Genocide. Erdogan has yet to respond to it.
The wall of denial by Turkey, and that of certain of its American friends, is crumbling. For proof, see www.NoPlaceForDenial.com.
As for the school board, it needs to go sit in the corner with a dunce cap on.
All you hate-filled propagandists with your “Armenian Genocide” lies need to just go away. You label an entire ethnic group as “Genocide Deniers” and then claim to be humanitarians. You deny the deaths of innocent Moslem Women and Children at the hands of Armenian Revolutionaries counting only Christian lives and treating Moslem lives and then you accuse the other side of being “unable to face the truth”. Let the other side speak and stop blackballing them as “Genocide Deniers”. You are the ones who are denying historical facts!!
Meant to say ” …treating Moslem lives as worthless…”
Get a grip people. The course from which Colorso’s book was pulled from is a HISTORY course.
Who is Coloroso?
She has training in sociology, special education, philosophy, and theology.
She is NOT a historian. So why is her book on the reading list for a history course?
By way of information, below is a list of third party (neither Turkish nor Armenian) HISTORIANS whose books do not appear on the reading list, yet they are reknowned experts in Ottoman history and the events on which Armenians base their genocide allegations.
1. William Batkay
2. Roderic Davidson
3. Edward J. Erickson
4. David Fromkin
5. Edwin A. Grosvenor
6. Michael Gunter
7. J.C. Hurwitz
8. Eberhard Jäckel
9. Steven Katz
10. Avigdor Levy
11. Bernard Lewis
12. Guenther Lewy
13. Heath Lowry
14. Andrew Mango
15. Justin McCarthy
16. Pierre Oberling
17. Dankwart Rostow
18. Stanford Shaw
19. Norman Stone
20. Gilles Veinstein
Why aren’t the books of these esteemed historians on the list?
Because Armenian special interest groups forbid it because these historians, professors of history, conclude no genocide occurred.
So which special interest group is the TDSB really pandering to?
Isn’t it funny, or sad, depending how you look at it, that there are still those who look at you in the face and without the slightest feeling of shame say that there was no Armenian Genocide, that these are mere lies and that so-called historians attest to that fact, thus, gingerly copying the attitude of those who claim the Holocaust is a lie also.
How long will the world endure these kinds of racist anti-Armenian propaganda that today’s Turks wholeheartedly practice. Admitting the fact that a group of thugs who ruled the Ottoman Empire in 1915 committed the crime of genocide against the Armenians does not bring shame to Turks however, a state sponsored denial campaign of modern Turkey brings shame to the entire Turkish nation.
Turkish Canadians who tout the unattainable stance of the Turkish government should think about the harm they bring upon themselves.
Zareh,
I suggest you come to grips with reality and the hard cold facts.
In 1914, close to 200,000 Armenian revolutionaries armed to the teeth by Russia, France and England waged war against the Ottoman Empire. That’s more trooops than the U.S. currently has in Iraq during the “surge.” See publications by your very own Dashnak Armenian leaders such as Boghos Nubar and Armen Garo (aka Garegin Pasdermajian). Those armed Armenian militias effectively followed Russian command and kept Ottoman forces from the eastern front, which allowing Russian forces to advance into Ottoman territory.
All of this is in the Russian archives, as well as elsewhere.
Know what else is in the Russian archives?
The plans of the Armenian Dashnaks to ethnically cleanse eastern Anatolia of all Ottoman Muslims and Jews to set up a racially pure Armenian state– just like the Armenians did in Khojaly when they ethnically cleansed all Azeri Turks from the region in 1992. Armenia has 2 U.N. Resolutions condemning its illegal occupation of Azerbaijani territories and for the atrocities committed against unarmed civilians there.
Meanwhile, the Armenian Diaspora parades around seeking sympathy and pity from all and sundry in the hopes of reaping wildly outrageous reparations for a crime against humanity they have NEVER proven in a court of law, for which they have shamelessly pandered about FORGED AND FALSIFIED EVIDENCE. To this day, Armenian genocide proponents still claim Hitler spoke of the Armenians when it has been established, not only by third party historians, but also an Armenian historian that Hitler NEVER said such a thing.
If these things are not true, why does the Armenian diaspora continue to CONCEAL the Dashnak revolutionary archives stored in Boston?
The Armenian diaspora has millions to donate to politicians to lobby them for genocide resolutions, but claims to have no money to catalog those documents. Well, Turkey has just most generously offered to donate $20M to the Armenian diaspora to have those Dashnak archives catalogued and so far….there’s nothing but silence from the Armenians.
What’s most pitiful about all of this Zareh, is that your people have shamelssly used genocide claims in an effort to obtain lands your military could not obtain by force. Not only that, in the interim, your people have lost themselves in a web of deceit that is so thick that they’ve totally and completely lost their moral compass and don’t even know what truth is anymore.
Dear Kemal,
Sorry to say, you are living in a fairy land concocted by your Turkish government propaganda machine. What you say above is utterly ridiculous both in content and in spirit. You do not even hesitate to make a fool out of yourself by blindly repeating falsehoods, verbatim.
But you go further, in an obvious desperation to finding a co-victim you try to get other nations involved in a concocted plot, where you get Armenians not only attacking innocent Turks but Jews as well, I always wonder if the Jews know about this part of your plot? and why we haven’t heard a peep out of Jewish intellectuals, organizations or the State of Israel, not even a word about this comes out of the hired historians of Jewish descent mentioned above who shamefully defend “Turks playing-innocent” thesis, for big bucks!
The ridiculousness gets funnier every time the Turkish so-called Historical Society tries to throw everything to the wall hoping something will stick! a practice which has found a champion in you, it seems.
And Khojaly, ah yes Azerbaijan, that wonderful peaceful Armenian-loving nation where it was only yesterday that the Canadian newspaper headlines were screaming about the pogroms Azeris committed against innocent Azerbaijani-Armenian civilians of BaKu, Sumgait, Gianja, Khanlar, Getashen, Shaumian, not to mention the destruction of Armenian cities of Nagorno-Karabakh itself where thousands were killed, way before the Khojali incident.
The genocidal policies of Azerbaijan and the Armenian response to it cannot be used to refute the reality of the Armenian genocide. Just as Israeli defensive strikes in Lebanon, causing the unfortunate deaths of thousands of innocent lives, cannot be used to disprove the reality of the Holocaust, however much you try.
I guess in a Turk’s book Armenians are not allowed to defend themselves.
Talk about being pitiful. We are talking about 1915 and the annihilation of an entire civilization from its ancestral lands. Get a grip on that reality!
Zareh,
Your response to Kemal is meaningless. He quotes numbers, dates, documneted history, and events.
You did not respond to a single one of these. You continued with nothing but rehotoric and insult. Why dont you
compose yourself, study the facts, and respond to his claims item by item? This is the only way truth will come out.
Let us reevaluate Armenia’s persistence on the word ‘genocide’ from a different perspective:
Armenia’s attitude towards Turkey’s land integrity: Article 11 of the Armenian Declaration of Independence of August 23, 1990; refers to Eastern Anatolia of Turkey as Western Armenia and as such beholds that this area is part of Armenia. Since the Armenian constitution recognizes as a basis “the fundamental principles of the Armenian statehood and national aspirations engraved in the Declaration of Independence of Armenia”, it likewise accepts the characterization of Eastern Anatolia as Western Armenia and this, albeit indirectly, translates into the advancement of territorial claims. The Armenian politicians and school books call Eastern Anatolia of Turkey, ‘invaded mother land of Armenia’ and in Armenia the school children are being grown up being conditioned to be patriots to rescue their invaded land. Even the marches they sing are about this condition. The Armenians who write in such blogs that the Eastern Anatolia cities do not belong to Turkey, as if the present Eastern boundaries of Turkey was not determined by treaties of Gumru (1920), Moscow (1921) and the whole boundaries by Lausanne (1923) Treaties; after the Turkish Freedom War.
Additionally Armenia refused Turkey’s recurrent offers to commit an agreement declaring that each country recognizes the other country’s land integrity, in 1992 and later.
Why do the Armenians force Turkey to accept a genocide? The answer is hidden in a speech of the chief of Dashnak Party Hrant Markaryan who told that their efforts for the recognition of Armenian (so-called) genocide was not an isolated purpose but it was a part of the struggle for rescue of the West Armenia (Armenian Forum Vol2 No 4; Armenian Weekly On-line, 18 June, 4 July 2003). The Armenian then prime minister Andranik Markaryan told that the internationally recognition of (so called) Armenian genocide and demanding land from Ankara as ‘compensation’ was possible only after Armenia had strengthened and the Armenians should not have told that they demanded land from Ankara loudly and everywhere (Arminfo 26 May 2004). On one occasion President Kocharian stated that since today’s Armenia does not have the clout to advance such demands, doing so should be left to future generations at a time when conditions would hopefully be better suited to this end’. A poll taken in Armenia revealed that almost all youngsters in the Republic of Armenia wished to follow up with land claims from Turkey and 90% of them said Turkey must unequivocally accept genocide allegations. (Milliyet - April 11, 2006)
The world should not forget that Germany’s claim on Zudetland and Gdansk just because they were its historical lands caused burst of World War II! History is full of wars which broke up because of claims of states on their historical lands. If an item like the aforementioned Armenian item were present in the lawbook of Mexico claiming that Texas, Arizonna, New Mexico and California which were historical lands of Mexico, belonged to Mexico but invaded, would the American tolerate it?
Therefore the world should not overlook Armenia’s aggressivity, which is hidden behind their role of victim and should think about the price of their support to the Armenians very well
The documents the Armenians present to prove that genocide occurred consists of many forgeries. For example:
1) The number of Armenians who were relocated:
The number of the Armenians who were relocated was reported as 600-700 thousand by Boğos Nubar Pasha who attended to the talks of Sevres Treaty as a chief of Armenians. However the number of relocated Armenians is given as 1.5 million by some Armenian sources and 2 and even 2.5 million by some others.
2) Aram Andonian’s book (The telegrams which were claimed to have been sent by Talat Pasha to order the massacre of the Armenians which were pressed in the book of Aram Andonian in 1920, in three languages): It was proven by both the Turkish and foreign historians that these telegrams were fake too.
After these telegrams were published in Daily Telegraph in England, in 1922, the English Foreign Ministry made a scrutiny and denounced that they were prepared by an Armenian association.
3) Diary of American Ambassador Morgenthau published in 1918. Professor Heath Lowry, an American historian from Princeton University displayed that the events depicted in the book depended on lies or half true events, by comparing the information Ambassador Morgenthau sent to American Foreign Ministry, with those written in the diary, in his book entitled ‘The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story’, in 1990 .
4) The cover photograph of the book of Tessa Hoffmann: Tessa Hoffmann printed the painting of Russian artist Vasili Vereshchagin depicting a mass of skulls which was painted in 1871, as if it were the photograph of 1915 Armenian genocide, in the cover of his book and had to admit his forgery during the trial of Doğu Perinçek held in Switzerland in March 2007, in which he was listened as a wittness.
The historical evidence is so overwhelming on the genocide of Armenians that pitiful attempts do deny it can hardly make a dent. Thus Turkey in fabricating denials is wasting resources and discrediting itself in the eyes of the world. Those Turks outside of Turkey who support the desperate theses put forward by Turkey are likewise discrediting themselves in the countries they live in.
Let us meet the historians who defend the Turkish theses, two of the more important ones are Bernard Lewis, and Gunter Lewy
Bernard Lewis is a Professor Emeritus at Princeton University in the department of Near Eastern Studies who was condemned in a June 21, 1995 French court decision for statements he made denying the Armenian genocide.
Mr. Lewis was convicted for ” concealing elements contrary to his thesis that the defendant was able to assert that there was no “serious proof” of the Armenian genocide”.
This venerable historian simply twisted the truth to fit his thesis and he was caught and discredited.
Gunter Lewy
His work “The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey: A Disputed Genocide” was refused by 11 peer reviews which is essential for establishing a historian’s credibility. Finally, University of Utah “Islamic and Turksih Studies” published the work which has been publicly criticized by fellow historians, for the simple reason that Lewy’s interest lies mainly upon the exclusivity of the Jewish Holocaust as being the only case of Genocide. Therefore, he “finds” all the reasons to “prove” his points.
Dear fellow Turks,
You seem to think that this is a site for historical debate, therefore asking for names, dates, and perhaps footnotes with sources etc… this is not the place to do this. However, there are ample sources and books one can read to get acquainted with the truth of the Armenian Genocide, written, discussed and analyzed by non-Armenian impartial historians who have no restraints such as the Turkish historians might face in Turkey by the notorious article 301 in the criminal code in Turkey that the mere utterance of the word “genocide” can put a pour soul in a jail.
So let us be honest and realize that if there is one entity that is politicizing this issue it is the Turkish side. The bankruptcy of the Turkish attitude highlights the fact that it is a political decision not to admit the reality of the truth of the Armenian Genocide because of the fears of territorial demands by the Armenian side. So this has nothing to do with historic truth.
About the expressed demands for territorial compensation. Why not? although not realistic but it is morally justifiable a 100%. An entire indigenous people was annihilated from their ancestral land, for the simple reason that they were PERCEIVED as a threat, this perception, instead of the tired old song and dance about Armenians “stabbing the Empire in the back”, was the driving force to eliminate the Armenians and secure the Ottoman lands for the Turks exclusively. And obviously it succeeded.
Ottoman lands were not exclusively Turkish, Armenians being citizens of the Empire had as much rights to those lands as any other ethnic group. Those rights were denied by the brutal extermination campaigns carried out by the Central government of the Ottoman Empire, with the final touches put forth by Ataturk himself.
The fear of political consequences does not alter historical realities.
“So many (brainwashed) historians, so little time”. “Turkey run, Turkey hide, Turkey is guilty of genocide”. “Absolut Denial”
If the Armenian Genocide is a lie, what about the 300,000 Greeks and 150,000 Assyrians that were also killed during the same period of time.
ARMENIAN GENOCIDE IS A FACT AND TURKEY KNOWS IT.
@aylin ata
Turks like Aylin ata have never heard of “Turkis Armenia or Armenian Vilayats of Ottoman Empire”)
Aylin ata, you have listed the reasons for Turkish denial of Armenian Genocide: maybe you are raised up to ignore the simple historic facts. Such as to deny that prior to Armenian Genocide East Turkey (“East Anatolia”) was called “Turkish Armenia ” or “Armenian Vilayats of Ottoman Empire” or simple “West Armenian” . (Read the international documents signed by Ottoman Turkey , which all referring to East Turkey as caring out reforms for “Armenian Vilayats”! (e.g. WEST ARENIA) etc”
Why should Armenians deny such historic facts? Maybe Turkish government, Turkish ultra nationalist and Turkish charlatan historian can delete the name of “Armenia” form maps and historical documents in Turkey but facts remain facts
Turkey’s Chronic Inability to Face the Truth
http://www.globalpolitician.com/24630-armenia-turkey
TO Turksih Nationalist in this forum:
Turkish government and Turkish nationalist are well aware of the truth about the Armenia Genocide.
Turkey has NO problem with the fact or Armenian Genocide. This “modern” Turkey has problems with the fact that
Armenian people had survived this genocide and now Armenians are asking for justice!
Turkish politicians and its ultra nationalist are in no way concerned or ashamed about the fact of Armenian Genocide
They (Turkey) are simple concerned about the existence of Armenian people!
Zareh,
Your rhetoric is false. If it is a crime to simply utter the word genocide in Turkey, the Prime Minister would be imprisoned. He did, after all, invite Armenia to form a joint commission to study the issue and the archives of all relevant parties (including Armenia’s, which are closed to the public) and stated plainly that if such a commission determined a genocide occurred, Turkey would account for its history.
So far, nothing but silence from Armenians… because, we all know they’ve much to hide that is in their archives.
Poor Armenians, what are you going to do as the list of historians who conclude no genocide occurred continues to grow? You will have to find your identity elsewhere, or, God forbid, take responsibility for your country’s failing economy and its failing democracy, which has caused over 40,000 Armenians to prefer living as illegal immigrants in Turkey than in their own poor corrupt country.
A bill criminalizing denial of the Armenian Genocide will be adopted by the Slovak parliament in late 2008 and will come into effect in January or February 2009.
“Slovakia, whose parliament recognized the Armenian Genocide in 2004, has been operating the law penalizing denial of the Holocaust. Introducing amendments, we expand the law over all genocides, including the Armenian Genocide,” Slovakia’s Justice Minister Stefan Harabin said.
Any Slovak citizen or foreigner who denies the Armenian Genocide will face a 5-year imprisonment, according to him.
“The Armenian Genocide is the most outrageous crime against humanity,” Mr Harabin said, adding that no remarks have been received as regards the bill, which should be passed in any democratic state.
Hally,
You might find what I say as false, but your opinion perfectly follows the logic of someone who does not see things clearly.
Let me explain.
For a long while the Turkish government directive to journalists, intellectuals and academia was to use the “so-called” qualifier every time the word “Armenian genocide” was mentioned. That changed recently to “past events” and “1915 incidents”. We see these qualifiers every time we read an article in a Turkish newspaper or read an official’s transcript ad nauseam. So Yes, If PM Erdogan utters the words “Armenian Genocide” he could be in a big trouble with the military and the nationalists.
Prime Minister Erdogan would want the Armenians and the world believe that his offer of forming a commission to”study” the “1915 events” is nothing but a red herring. There is nothing genuine coming from a country which has already declared that the Armenian genocide “allegations” are false, they are lies and a mere diaspora instigated propaganda.
The only genuine thing in a such a dishonest Turkish government “offer” is in the fact that it is very amusing, best suited perhaps as source-material for a stand-up comedian’s act.
By the way, just to burst your anti-Armenian zealotry, the State archives of Armenia are open to any historical researcher, or individuals with accreditation, so are the Boston based Tashnag archives, since 1995.
You have been taken in by false Turkish propaganda, again!!
The Dashnak and Armenian archives are open to “individual with accreditation.” What accreditation?
The Ottoman archives in Turkey are open to all members of the public, as are those in the U.S., England, France, etc. The Ottoman archives are even accessible via the internet.
While you complain about 301, your compatriot celebrates laws against freedom of speech and thought. What hypocrits you all are.
Sell your snake oil somewhere else and stop trying to corrupt our democracy with the totalitarian dictatorial values you’ve brought from abroad.
If anyone is posting hateful messages to this board, it has been those promoting genocide claims. How utterly slippery of you to compare Khojaly to the Isreali Palestinian conflict. The videos of the those slain in Khojaly show them to be unarmed civilians, primarily the elderly, women and children who couldn’t run fast enough to get away from their murderers. There has been no such atrocity committed by Israel against Palestinians.
It’s true as previously commented above, you’re so lost in your own web of deceit that you’ve no concept of the truth.
First, it is simply not true if you claim anybody can walk in the Turkish State archives and sift through material, especially concerning the period in question, one needs a special permission to do that, to pretend ignorance to this fact is simply disingenuous. Many such obstacles have been put forward for those who the Turkish authorities deemed “undesirable”
Secondly, To bring up Khojali of 1992 to try to deny the reality of the Armenian genocide of 1915 is utter nonsense, devoid of any human decency.
You might not like the comparison between Khojali and southern Lebanon, that is you own problem, but the thousand-plus innocent Lebanese civilians that were killed last year, and are still being killed by the leftover illegal cluster bombs, tell a different story. The daily pictures of decapitated children and women is the result of an indiscriminate Israeli shelling. Was Israel forced into such action? absolutely, no State can endure actions of groups like Hamas or Hizbollah cowardly shelling on Israeli towns and villages.
But the result??? innocent civilians killed.
If we are discussing Azerbaijan then we should start with the way the Azeris attacked innocent Armenian civilians in the streets and in their homes with medieval savagery in many major Azerbaijani towns, killing hundreds of women and children. How soon you forget, sammy. But the subject is not Azerbaijan and regardless of the degree of desperation that drives our Turkish friends to muddy up the issue of the Armenian genocide, is simply futile, you can try all you want, It does not work.
And as usual, coming up empty of any worthwhile defense you, sammy, resort to an age old rhetoric: all those who discuss about the factuality of the Armenian genocide are “posting hateful messages”
Yes I’m sure the neo-Nazis are utterly offended by the “hateful” discussions of the Holocaust.
Zareh,
Ottomans were meticilous record keeprs. They recorded every event day by day int their archives. There is not a
single documnet in those archives and any other archive (including the Russian, USA) that proves that the Ottoman
Government ordered the killing of their Armenian citizens.
Ottomans ran periodic census of their population and ethnicity since 1850. The earlier dierctor of the census
was An armenian for abiut 20 years, this was followed by an individual of British origin for about 10 years. The first
census director of Turkish origion was assigned in 1910. These census records show that the Armenian population
never exceeded 1.25 Million and about 8% within the entire empire with the highest concentration being about 15%
in Erzeurum. These censusses were authenticated by the British and French Embassies in letters sent to their
governments.
With such undeniable evidence in hand, how can the Armenians claim 1.5 Million dead and majorities in the
6 vilayets they claim? These are gross, inflated lies to attract public sympathy.
Talat Pasha’s notes, confirmed by your own Bogos Nubar reports that about 700,000 Armenians were relocated
and about 400,000 reached the Fertile Crescent. This proves that less than 300,000 were lost due to civil strife,
disease, and hunger, which was suffered by all Ottoman subjects who lived in this war torn region.
Stop rheotoric and insults and speak facts. Calling people “Genocide Deniers” and trying to shut them
up just doesn’t work anymore!
Zareh,
Either you are a liar or you write about things that you know nothing about. I accessed Turkish archives concerning the Armenian issue this morning without presenting any “accreditation.”
Turkish archives concerning the Armenian issue are available here: http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/source.cms4/index.asp?wslt=devletarsivleri.gov.tr.ce
You repeatedly post personal attacks against those who disagree with you, but rarely respond to assertions of fact unflattering to Armenians.
You claim Armenian state archives in Yerevan and the Dashnak archives in Boston are open to those with “accreditation.” Asking for the second time, what “accreditation”?
As for Khojaly, my post *responds* to your ridiculously inaccurate analogy that you still try to draw to the Iraeli Palestinian conflict.
In 1992, Armenians didn’t shell the unarmed civilian Azeri Turks in Khojaly. They killed them all by hand, one by one.
Good for you sammy, but we are talking about have access, as in ENTER the archives and not what the Turkish government deems “Clear” for publication on the internet.
Are you kidding us?
your “cleverness” is getting to be quite tiresome.
Zareh,
Your evasive tactics are quite tiresome. Pray tell, how do the Armenians censor who may access the Armenian and Dashnak archives? For the THIRD time, what “ACCREDITATION” is needed?
If you tried accessing the Turkish archives, you’d know that not only are Turkish translations available, but PDFs of photos of the originals in Ottoman script are available for download.
As for walking in, anybody can walk in and request documents from the Turkish archives.
You seem to be hung up on the word “accreditation”. OK, how about a piece of paper that says the person in question is a historian, or a student of history connected to an institution or a university, or is a scholar.
I don’t think there are any archives in the world that would permit someone walking off the street to sift through original archival materials for the study of primary sources. When the likes of Yusuf Halacoglu of the Turkish Historical Society claim that the Armenian archives are closed, what, I am assuming, he means is it is closed for unrestricted scrutiny of ALL primary original documents, which is his poor attempt to match the Armenian accusation concerning the Turkish archives which are indeed HEAVILY restricted to outside (read: Armenian) scrutiny, even to those who do produce the necessary scholarly attestations.
You might be right about “anybody walking in the Turkish archives” if they are Turks or perhaps have pro-Turkish views, It was quite difficult for Vahakn Dadrian, for example to get the necessary documents, and many “clerical” obstacles thrown at him to avoid an unfettered scrutiny. Recently, Ara Sarafian, the British-Armenian historian, upon repeatedly requesting copies of original documents from the archives, to attest Yusuf Halacoglu’s allegations, was refused.
Similarly, Hilmar Keiser, another historian, was practically thrown out of the archives, whereas before he was deemed as “pro-Armenian” by Turkish circles he was welcomed with open arms.
Have I made myself a bit clearer to you?
Zareh,
All that you’ve confirmed is that you do not know of what you speak.
Sarafian personally obtained copies of over 3,000 documents from the Turkish archives while Hilmar Kaiser obtained copies of over 5,900 documents. These two made a practice of visiting the Turkish archives together and were asked to leave for abusing the staff. Kaiser, however, has again been accessing the Turkish archives unfettered since 2005.
How many historians who do not buy into Armenian “genocide” claims have been allowed to access, much less photocopy, 3,000 pages of documents from the Armenian state or Dashnak archives? Tell us that.
As for “accreditation”, just last month Guenter Lewy, a Holocaust survivor and professor who has taught at Columbia University and Smith College, and who is now professor emeritus at the University of Massachusetts, acknowledged again that the Armenian and Dashnak archives continue to be denied to historians such as himself.
The “accreditation” required is that one must be a genocide proponent before access is granted.
As for Dadrian, supported by the Armenian funded and led Zoryan Institute ever since he lost his teaching position for sexually harassing female students, it has been proven time and again that his writings are riddled with inaccuracies, make substantive assertions without citation and selectively reference material out of context for dramatic, yet historically inaccurate, effect. Furthermore, this self-styled “historian” still relies upon the Andonian documents, accepted by all renowned historians of Ottoman history as documents forged by an Armenian group immediately after WWI. Yet, according to what you write, this charlatan had access to the Turkish archives. The Turks are much too tolerant.
Which begs the question, why prepare forgeries if these claims are so indisputable?
Nice, very nice. You seem to know quite a detail about a very specialized field, and therefore we have to take your word for it, in an environment of anonymity and non-verifyability such as in our case. More importantly, with the absence of misters Sarafian and Kaiser from this discussion makes your assertions quite meaningless.
We also have to take your word for Mr. Lewy’s refusal from the Tashnag archives. Well dear Sammy, perhaps he was abusing the staff there, unless you were there we won’t know what happened. Also just because he is a Holocaust survivor does not make him immune from distorting the truth. He, unlike other Holocaust survivors such as Elie Wiesel who agree with the factuality of the Armenian genocide, is well known for his sole interest in the exclusivity of the Holocaust being the only case of true genocide, period. For that “exclusivity” he has found a lot of praise from the Turkish camp, even rewarded highest honours from a Turkish group who’s only aim is to deny Armenians ever were subjected to genocide. Sure!
It is amusing to see Turks give the Tashnag party “archives” the same weight and status as the archives of the State of the Ottoman Empire. But I”m sure the Tashnags are taking the compliment, with a smile. But I digress.
Now for Darian, those who do not agree with him are exclusively those who defend the Turkish theses. No other IMPARTIAL historians, historical societies or groups, or individuals who look from the outside disagree with him, isn’t that peculiar? This goes for the Andonian “forgeries” too. All the counter evidences of not having been writen on the right paper, issues with the date, the colour of the ink etc… remind me of those,in their attempt to deny the reality of the Holocaust, claim Ann Frank’S diaries as forgeries, because….ball point pens were not invented at her time, because, because because.
I do not doubt the Talaat telegram for the single reason that what was instructed on that paper was actually carried out, we have the entire Armenian nation to attest to that.
Sammy it is quite disappointing to see you resorting to a real “snake oil” salesmanship here, which you inappropriately accused me earlier. You cannot destroy the ideas of a man so now you resort to character assassination.
I searched the internet and all I could find about this malicious “sexual harassment” lies against Dadrian are confined in Turkish websites, and in other virulently anti-Armenian sites. Also these same websites seem to have nothing but praise to a racist individual called Sam Weems, an American disbarred, dishonoured attorney-turned-historian, who’s book title says everything, “Armenia, a Christian terrorist State”, who happened to be married to a Turk. These are the sources you are consulting? and you want to be taken seriously?
If this is the level of dishonesty that you want be involved in, it is your choice but don’t pretend to be sitting on a high horse and calling other honest people names.
Zareh,
Who’s the liar?
Dadrian’s dismissal made headlines:
“Times Union (Albany NY)
Section: LOCAL
Page: B10
Date: THURSDAY, April 25, 1991
GENESEO FIRES PROFESSOR FOR SEXUAL ARASSMENT
Associated Press
The State University College at Geneseo has dismissed a sociology professor for sexually harassing an 18-year-old freshman.
Vahank Dadrian, an internationally known expert on genocide, was notified of his discharge from the faculty by a letter Monday. The dismissal became effective Wednesday.
He had been suspended since September and had not taught at the college near Rochester since last spring, officials said….”
Please keep defending the Talaat Pasha telegrams and keep parading them around. It does much to help the Turkish side and discredit yours.
Even Hovanissian has given up defending those forgeries.
Also, anyone who has been to the Ottoman archives knows that original documents must be requested on a form that is filed and so it is easy to determine who has retrieved how many documents.
“How many historians who do not buy into Armenian “genocide” claims have been allowed to access, much less photocopy, 3,000 pages of documents from the Armenian state or Dashnak archives? Tell us that.”
Interesting question. Any answers Zareh?
The problem lies in the false premise that the Armenian archives, State or otherwise, would provide materials that would negate the fact of the Ottoman State organized extermination policies. We are told by the Turkish government that these are mere “diaspora” led “lies”. To this end they have spent 100’s of millions of dollars to convince the world (more appropriately bully the world) into accepting a laughable notion called “mutual warfare” to replace the real act of genocide.
How many population centers, far away from the so-called conflict zone, were rounded up given a few day’s notice to be marched on foot (across a vast Ottoman territory) or hurled into trains and sent to open desert destinations. How come right after the war a healthy muslim population remained and thrived in Anatolia while Armenians disappeared. If it was a mutual, i.e. equal warfare, how come there are no Armenians, not “terrorist groups”, but innocent Armenian population, left in Anatolia by the end of WWI.
Turks claim that official orders for wholesale extermination are not found, therefore today’s definition of genocide cannot be applied. This is another laughable, and pathetic, excuse because this is tantamount to saying that the proof of the existence of dinosaurs should be dismissed because there are no living dinosaurs today. Look at the “fossils” of the crime the Ottoman Turkish government left behind, both dead AND living, and you’d realize the futility of such denial.
All the evidences confirm that what the Armenians went through was an act of genocide but the Turkish government does not allow its citizens to see, instead, they help create conditions that naturally instigates hatred and intolerance.
Thank heavens things are changing in Turkey, albeit slowly, and there is an emerging intelligentsia that is courageously yelling at their own government, sometimes with heavy cost, that “enough is enough” with fabricated lies.
As for Dadrian, those charges, on the face of it seem to be true, although some students had come to his defense at the time underlying “cultural differences”. Without diminishing the seriousness of the charge of sexual harassment of this particular case, I would not want to even imagine what would happen to a European visitor to Saudi Arabia if he kisses the veiled wife of his Saudi neighbour.
The indiscretion that Dadrian was involved in is indeed condemnable and was a serious setback to his personal life. But he continued to occupy prominent posts as a scholar after 1991, and his contribution towards better understanding what really happened in the Ottoman Empire stays indisputably valid. Despite his character flaws, the official archival materials covered in his books do not lie.
My apologies to sammy for the accusation him of giving wrong information about Dadrian’s case.
What you craftily avoid and refuse to acknowledge is that large numbers of Armenian militants joined forces with the Entente Powers and declared war against the Ottoman Empire.
Armenian militants not only fought with the Russians, but their forces that remained behind the front sabotaged Ottoman military by blowing up rail tracks, cutting communication lines and hindering efforts to supply Ottoman soldiers at the front. You can read all about it, if you care to, in Edward Erickson’s most recent article, in which he concludes that the Armenian militants posed a genuine national security threat to the Ottoman Empire. The Armenians and Ottoman Military Policy, 1915 published in War in History, Vol. 15, No. 2, 141-167 (2008).
That is what is in the Dashnak and Armenian state archives. But go ahead, keep them hidden. Researchers are pulling Armenian and Dashnak documents authored during that era from the Russian archives. It’s only a matter of time before they are translated into English.
Not only that but we also have it from the word of Armenian revolutionary leaders Pasdermajian and Boghos Nubar that close to 200,000 Armenians were armed and actively fighting against the Ottoman regime. That’s more troops than the U.S. has in Iraq.
That is war, and when you lose a war that you’ve declared, it does not ergo become genocide.
1. “[T]he mobilization of 1914 took place in the Caucasus. The Armenian reservists, about 160,000 in number, gladly responded to the call, for the simple reason that they were to fight the arch enemy of their historic race. Besides the regular soldiers, nearly 20,000 volunteers expressed their readiness to take up arms against the Turks.”
Garegin Pasdermadjian, Why Armenia Should be Free: Armenia’s Role in the Present War (Hairenik Publishing Co. 1918) p. 19.
“Only seven battalions of Armenian volunteers were kept on the Caucasian front. As we have already seen, those few battalions even, in 1914 and 1915, rendered to the Russians invaluable services, twice saving the right and left wings of the Russian army from an unavoidable catastrophe by their heroic resistance….”
Garegin Pasdermadjian, Why Armenia Should be Free: Armenia’s Role in the Present War (Hairenik Publishing Co. 1918) pp. 28.
NOTE: Mobilization of Armenian militants took place in 1914, that’s long before any relocation orders ever issued.
2. ” … ever since the beginning of the war the Armenians fought by the side of the Allies on all fronts. … for the Armenians have been belligerents de facto, since they indignantly refused to side with Turkey.
Our volunteers fought in the French “Legion Entrangere” and covered themselves with glory. In the Legion d’Orient they numbered over 5,000, and made up more than half the French contingent in Syria and Palestine, which took part in the decisive victory of General Allenby.
In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Nazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks, whom they held in check until the armistice was signed. Thus, they ehlped the British froces in Mesopotamia by hindering the Germano-Turks from sending their troops elsewhere.
These services have been acknowledged by the Allied Governments, as Lord Robert Cecil recognized in the House of Commons.”
Boghos Nubar, The Times of London (January 3, 1919)
NOTE: Nubar was the Armenians chosen representative to the Paris Peace Conference.
3. “The deployments will be part of the regular rotation of troops into Iraq and will come on the heels of the “surge” of troops, which is expected to end this summer. The increased U.S. presence in Iraq — which topped out at about 170,000 troops — is expected to go down to 140,000 by the end of July.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/19/AR2008051902174.html
And those are the cold hard facts that Armenians cannot seem to come to grips with.
Zareh,
You make a lot of assertions without any foundation. A healthy muslim population remained? Are you mad? Or, are you just callous and indifferent?
Over 1 Million people who were NOT Armenians that once lived in southeastern Anatolia lost their lives during the period from 1914-1923. Most massacred by Armenian militias. Russian military officers and French military leaders in charge of the so-called “French” Armenian Legion witnessed those atrocities and left records of what they saw.
In fact, the atrocities committed by the Armenian Legion were so horrific and the Legion so out of control, the French actually withdrew their support for the Armenian Legion and THAT is when the real exodus and migration of Armenians began–because the Armenians were afraid of reprisals from the locals for what they had done.
The irony is that if Armenian militias had not raped, pilllaged and massacred in southeastern Anatolia as they did, they would not have lost the support of the French who had clothed and armed their militias and who knows, maybe Armenia would extend to the Mediterranean. But the zeal with which they took to ethnically cleanse the region backfired… just as the zeal with which Armenian embrace and teach their youth to hate Turks has poisoned your people to the point that they are known for nothing else but genocide claims, not for culture, not for any contribution to society, but instead they are famous for ASALA, Justice Commandos and the mad massacre at Khojaly. Good job, congrats.
“How many historians who do not buy into Armenian “genocide” claims have been allowed to access, much less photocopy, 3,000 pages of documents from the Armenian state or Dashnak archives? Tell us that.”
Interesting question. Any answers Zareh?
Still waiting for an answer…
Thank God there are Turks like Taner Akcam and Ali Kazancigil who are brave enough to face the truth about their
own history. Most Turks engage in denying the Armenian genocide not out of malice but out of ignorance -
unfortunately I can’t say the same for Kemal who seems to take pleasure in denying a crime evidenced by objective
historians.
In any case the good thing is that the David Irvings of the Armenian genocide will soon fade away as
democratic forces in Turkey itself will eventually prevail.
Kemal’s list on May 26th, of historians is interesting as at least one of those listed, #4 David Fromkin, does not in fact deny that genocide occurred.
Meanwhile Donald Quataert, an American specialist of Ottoman history and a professor at Binghampton University was forced out of his position as Chairman of the Institute of Turkish Studies at Georgetown University by the Turkish ambassador after he refused to retract a review he made of Donald Bloxham’s book ‘The Great Game of Genocide: Imperialism, Nationalism, and the Destruction of the Ottoman Armenians’.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/harut-sassounian/turkish-ambassador-dismis_b_104996.html
Well put RWE. The latest news on the forced resignation of Quataert reaffirms that the
Turkish government’s promotion of a “historians’ commission” to study the extermination of
the Armenians in 1915 is a red herring. Looks like whenever a historian does not toe the official
denialist line, his/her views are no longer valid in the eyes of the Turkish government and its
ultranationalist agents overseas.
“Donald Quataert, an American specialist of Ottoman history and a professor at Binghampton University was forced out of his position as Chairman of the Institute of Turkish Studies at Georgetown University by the Turkish ambassador after he refused to retract a review he made of Donald Bloxham’s book ‘The Great Game of Genocide: Imperialism, Nationalism, and the Destruction of the Ottoman Armenians”. WAIT I thought this person was a respected professional, The true face of Turkey is comming out. There are more on the way, just wait and see.
RIP all the innocent victims of ALL genocides. Jewish, Armenian, Rwandan, Cambodian…
for Kelams’ eyes only
http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=314
Here’s the latest independent research - you might want to have a look at….
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=935
All I can conclude from what is debated above is, this issue is being heavily discussed by all and is not a closed
case and not at all a genocide but mutual ethnic killings reinforced by warfare, civil strife, and disease.
Dear Demir,
I disagree with you, in the case of the Armenian genocide we have only the Turks saying there has to be more “debate” (read: stalling tactics until figuring out a plan B)
You have the entire world on one side and Turkey with their not-so-hidden POLITICAL allies on the other insisting on a “debate”, in fact what Turks want to do is akin to kneading water where truth slips and slides through the fingers, ad infinitum.
Zareh,
I give up, you do not read, you do not respond to all the questions asked and evidence produced above. You keep denying that this is still a debated issue.
You are a hopeless case.
Good bye!
Demir,
If questions are relevant, intelligent and honest. I answer them.
The Armenian genocide issue is debatable only to the extend of exploring the reasons why this crime was committed and under what circumstances the Ottoman leadership thought the time was ripe to carry out these policies and its aftereffects.
But the debate that the Turkish side is offering is nothing but an attempt to distort and rewrite history, this offer is simply dishonest especially due to the fact that today there are severe restrictions in Turkey for open academic freedom to explore ALL aspects of the Armenian issue. With a series of legislations, the most famous being article 301, and in spite of cosmetic changes that it has gone through, remain an effective weapon in the hands of the Turkish prosecution to silence all those who dare to go against the government decreed “history” of the Armenians,prior, during and After WWI.
Demir, until such restrictions are completely removed, and Turks who questions aspects of this conflict are not branded “stabbers in the back” the Turkish government has no moral grounds for offering a so-called impartial historic “debates”, and as such, this “offer” remains in the realm of propaganda.
Impartial historic verdicts have long been rendered about the reality of the Armenian genocide, all Turks have to do is educate themselves, free from government shackles.
with regards.